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Home >> Diet Forums >> Any Ideas ??

Any Ideas ??

dakkad said: "Hello Just wondering if anyone had any insight as to why I am having such a hard time losing the last 5lbs. Over the past year, I have lost approx 10 lbs. I work out 6-7 days a week, alternating cardio (elliptical--burning approx 500 cal) with intense yoga (not sure of calorie burn). I also do bicep curls. I eat approx 1200 on average a day, which with how I work out I thought may be low, but I am not losing any more weight. Am I working out too much, or eating too little? I am 5'2" .. 32 year old female. I now weigh 108, looking to drop to 103. I have read stuff on maybe being burnt out, or being at a plateau, or maybe even starvation mode?? Any ideas ? Thanks a bunch DAK"

Henrietta said: "You can still build muscle on "reduced calories", can you not?"

Heather said: "Hello! I checked out your BMI according to the information you gave, and your BMI is at 19.8 which is considered to be a healthy weight. (anything under 18.5 is considered to be underweight) If you lose 5 pounds more, you will be at that point. You want to be sure to stay healthy. Risking your health for 5 vanity pounds doesn't seem like a really good thing to do. Focus on healthy eating and moderate exercise to tone, and try to focus less on your "scale weight""

helplesscase said: "Like I said in your other post, you dont need to lose any weight."

cvalh said: "Uh, Razor... Muscle DOES weigh more than fat. Yes, one pound equals one pound... But as far as volume is concerned, it takes a greater volume of fat than muscle to achieve the same scale weight. Therefor, you might have built up some muscle that weighs a lot, but you can't really see it yet, and lost fat that you CAN see but doesn't weight very much. So, you probably look healthier, but the scale may not reflect that."

cvalh said: "Okayyy, so I missed this thread for a couple of days. I have to be honest, Razor, had I been here, I likely would have had a similar reaction to Strout... But now that I see everything's cool, I guess I'll just shut up :-P"

cvalh said: "Which is why I said I'd shut up. I was initially involved in the convo, I missed a few days, I posted my reaction. It's called free speech. I didn't, however, drag it out."

stroutman81 said: "Well you did not have a lot of weight to lose to begin with. That being said, when you do go on a calorie restrictive diet.....it is very important to implement a well planned and consistent weight training program so that you maintain your muscle. Also, you may be intaking to few calories. You do not want to be more then 20% below your maintenance level of caloric consumption. If the weight you lost already was partially muscle, which if very easily could have been.....that would have slowed down your metabolism. That means in the initial stages (you were more muscular) you were burning more calories just being you then you are now. Now that you have lost some muscle through dieting, you are not burning as much naturally and that is what makes it harder to lose. I would jump up your calories for 3 or 4 days and sure up your lifting routine. 1200 calories is the bare bones minimum for caloric intake for the average woman so you do not trigger the starvation response."

stroutman81 said: "Yea Razor.....that is like saying a feather weighs as much as a equivalently sized piece of iron. Yes one pound of something compared to another one pound of something else will both always equal one pound, duh! But take two people for instance. They both are exactly the same height and have the exact same measurements from their head to their toes. However, one is 50% fat while the other is 7% fat. Which will weigh more. Hopefully you said the 7% individual."

stroutman81 said: "Geez Razor.... take a chill pill.... if you want to box we can arrange that too! Just put the gloves on! You need to get off your horse. As for my comment noted above that you so intelligently quoted me on, I said, "take for instance" in my original post. You forgot to add that to the insert you made of mine that you put in quotations. Nice try though. I was hypothetically stating that IF two people had the same exact heights and measurements from head to toe....yada yada yada....don't have to repeat myself. You state, "Show me how you think a person with 50% body fat will weigh less than a person with 7% body fat?" I never suggested that just "ANYONE" with 50% body fat will weigh less then someone with 7% body fat. I was using that as part of my hypothetical example I previously mentioned. The point is you can twist my words around as much as you’d like to make me look misinformed or uneducated.... but I am not quite sure what you hope to obtain by doing so. Do you desire respect; by all means I will give you respect. "Oh Razor, you are so intelligent and wise. For all of my clients and also the people that I help in my web group...I am going to refer them to you for advice because you ARE the all-mighty." There you go, by the sounds of your very argumentative response to my post, I would think that my last bid for your respect will please you. "Theirmom" was the individual who initially brought up her idea that muscle weighs more then fat, which was incorrect. You very thoughtfully corrected her comment and I appreciate that part of your response to her, as you were correct. However, since you decided to butcher and dissect my post, I will help you out with your own. Mind you, I hate arguing...but you really struck a chord with me, only because I am not sure what you are trying to prove. You stated, "Actually muscle does not weigh more than fat. 1 pound of muscle weighs the same as 1 pound of fat. They both weigh 1 pound." Thanks for the great information. My 5 year old cousin knows that one pound of something weighs the same as one pound of something else. Wasn't that a brainless riddle used in the old days. What weighs more, a 5lb bag of feathers or a 5lb bag of stone.... duh. You stated, "The reason people tend to think this is because the process of building muscle and burning fat simultaneously can be very difficult." There is more wrong with THIS statement, not mine, then I can even believe. I honestly laughed when you brought this topic up. Come on Razor. The very thing that you brought up in your argumentative response to my initial post about volume and density is what you should have brought up here, in your initial post! [B]People tend to think that muscle weighs more then fat because of the very fact you choose to leave out of the discussion regarding volume and density.[/B] Muscle is much more dense then fat. So in the last riddle that I spoke of, eliminate the weights of the bags. If you have 2 identical bags; one is filled with fat, and the other with muscle -- which, I ask you, will weigh more. The answer, which I have a feeling that you need help with, is the bag of muscle due to its density. It takes a larger sample of fat to equal the same weight of a sample of muscle. Easier and more simply stated...5 lbs of fat will take up more space then 5 lbs of muscle and because of that, people think that muscle weighs more than fat; because you need less of it to equal five lbs. I believe that answers your need for an explanation to the original post that I made. I believe you compared the answer from me that you desired to long hand arithmetic. You really are brilliant. Just interchange the identical bags in my last example and use the bodies from my initial post in their place. That is the point that I was bringing up in my reply to your initial post, that I felt density and volume needed to be addressed if one was truly and completely to be informed about fat vs. muscle. I was not trying to shoot you down or undercut your intelligence. Oh, and I am not done with the last set of quotations I placed your remarks in. The process of burning fat and building muscle is very difficult as you mention. You are correct. For many people it is darn near impossible. The only people who can truly obtain muscle growth while at the same time achieving fat loss are people with true mesomorphic bodies and metabolisms to match. If you were at all informed, you would realize that in a weight loss discussion board, most of the people are not mesomorphs, and therefore would not be able to build muscle while losing fat. For the very large majority of the human race, people need a calorie surplus to increase muscle mass and a calorie deficit to decrease fat composition. Obviously, you cannot do both simultaneously, except for some "zig zag" dieting methods that sometimes work and I am not sure if you are versed in this dieting philosophy nor is there a need to go into detail. I am just curious as to how you think that this is the reason why people are confused or misinformed regarding muscle weighing more then fat. The sheer fact of muscle being more dense then fat is what leads to the confusion. You even admit to not bringing up anything regarding density and volume and that is where you went wrong with your initial post. That plays a huge part, if not the only part, in this confusion that we speak of. I was simply bringing up the density issue in my initial post because you left it out. You state your goals are to help beginners easily understand. Well my goal is to educate beginners thoroughly and completely. I do not assume anyone to be an idiot and therefore treat every single person like they have some ability to learn. I think it would be more beneficial to explain and teach beginners complete knowledge and not bits and pieces. This is the very root of the problem with the health and fitness industry. Everyone is looking for a quick and easy fix, and there are tons of people out there just roaring to give him or her the quick and easy fix. Permanent fat loss and healthy living is not easy in this day and age, and therefore why should explaining how to do so be any easier. You keep arguing the fact that "a pound is a pound, is a pound." Well whenever a discussion arises among informed and educated people regarding muscle weight vs. fat weight, density and volume must be included in the discussion because of the role that it plays. Please, for the sake of your time and our intelligence; stop drilling your brilliant theory (which in essence is a common known fact) that a pound is a pound is a pound. We all know that a pound of feathers will equal a pound of iron. But many people do not realize that a pound of fat would take up a lot more space then a pound of muscle, just as a pound of feathers would take up a lot more space then a pound of iron; hence the need to include density and volume in this discussion. I apologize for my original post, as it may have been crude or primitive. I just never thought that I would have to explain myself in such great detail. I will refrain from doing that again. I am new to this board and did not realize it was a competition of knowledge. Let the games begin! Take it deep Razor. For anyone who may be interested in the importance of muscle and fat when trying to lose fat, I apologize that you had to read the arguments between Razor and myself. I thought we were just having a discussion but he decided to turn it into an argument. I wish he had done this privately as I truly do not feel the need to shoot down others. But I most definitely feel the need to defend my own intelligence and passion when one acts as Razor did; and because of that, that is the only reason I made my argumentative response public. To these same people that I am talking to now; many people decide to diet by cutting calories well below what they should. By doing this, they trigger the starvation response and their body will store and hold onto fat a lot more easily. It will also burn muscle once you trigger this starvation response. Now this is where many people go wrong with their eating habits. They exclaim that they do not care if they are losing muscle, as long as the weight is coming off. People need to realize that fat loss should be the only weight that you are losing. When you invoke muscle loss, you are in essence, slowing down your metabolism naturally which will in the end, put an end to your diet and increase your body fat percentage once you gain the weight you lost back. You should not be concerned with what the scale says, be more concerned with what your body fat percentage is. Many "skinny" women could not imagine weighing 150 lbs. However, a 150 lbs female fitness model could and probably does look better or more healthy then a 110 lbs woman having the same height. The idea is to create a lifestyle where healthy eating, aerobic exercise, and weight training are included. Many people decide to create a healthy lifestyle because they want to shed some unwanted weight. Well, due to the fact that you need that calorie deficit to lose fat, you need to implement weight training to hold onto your muscle. So, if you follow a strict routine for a month and you step on the scale and it says the same thing it did last month; do not think that you failed. Especially do not think, "I have to stop weight training because muscle weighs more then fat." Be more concerned with your overall body composition. Do you think a bodybuilder who weighs 275 lbs and has 4% body fat is complaining that he is overweight or out of shape? I do not think so. This is an extreme example but it validates the need to place more emphasis on body composition then physical weight."

stroutman81 said: "Razor: I did not realize I was debating with a woman; in that case, I WIN!!!! LOL, totally kidding, and congratulations on your success. Are you planning on competing, and in what sense. I used to compete in some body building shows, have moved on from that aspect of the fitness world. I am now focusing in on training and I still maintain a very healthy state for myself. I am currently 7.5% body fat and weigh 190 lbs. I am amazed of the amount of garbage that is out there regarding proper nutrition and fitness. It almost seems impossible to help on a broad basis as the voices of reason (us) just drown in all of the crap that is out there. And the sad thing is, the majority of people are paying for this crap that does not even work. I shout out my words of wisdom all over the web; on here now, and in my yahoo group. I often worry that I am reaching nobody. I wonder if anyone is truly taking in everything. I think you and I will agree on a lot of things now that I read your posts. I have talked so many people out of the weight watchers plan and totally agree with what you say. A proper nutrition plan is not a simple thing to develop and it has to be individually created for each person since different people respond differently to different foods. You had me fired up all day, from the moment I read your post, so you kept me motivated all day! No harm done :) I am sure I will be talking to you. Take care, Steve"

stroutman81 said: "Henrietta: Most can not build muscle on a reduced calorie diet as I stated earlier. True mesomorphs seem like they can eat whatever their heart desires and shed fat and build muscle. For the vast majority of people out there, including myself....inorder to build muscle you must be in calorie surplus and do lose fat, you must be in calorie deficit."

stroutman81 said: "No point in bringing up how you would have responded. I think it is best to let heated discussions stay where they are after they are buried. Debate and even argument is healthy. Helps bring out the truth many times. But I believe once an argument is over and settled, that is IT."

stroutman81 said: "Cool beans.....work it!"

Razor said: "[QUOTE=theirmom]Muscle weights more than fat. so be sure you are not ruining your muscle..uping your calories for a week or two could also jump start your losing again.[/QUOTE] Actually muscle does not weigh more than fat. 1 pound of muscle weighs the same as 1 pound of fat. They both weigh 1 pound. The reason people tend to think this is because the process of building muscle and burning fat simultaneously can be very difficult. A lot of people will step on the scale and be the same weight after 2 weeks of working out. What they are seeing is that they exchanged a pound of fat for a pound of muscle and that is why the weight has stayed the same. If you have been working out for 2 weeks and maybe gained a pound, then what you did was gain a pound of muscle, but you have not quite yet burned that pound of fat yet. This is the exact reason you should just throw away your scale and go by measurements and how your clothes feel and look."

Razor said: "Okay, I am going to get a cup of coffee before I get into this right quick... Okay we were talking about weight and pounds. Never did we talk about voulume and density. So to keep from going into all the complicated nonsense. Here is a scenario. I weigh 150 lbs and I gain 10 POUNDS of muscle to 160. Now that I am at 160 POUNDS then the next week I lose 10 POUNDS of FAT, that would put me back at 150 right? A pound is a pound now matter what it is. This example will be for Stroutman, by the way I never said anything about equal sizes anywhere in my post. You mentioned feathers and iron so we will use that in our example. Pretend muscle is the iron and fat is the feathers. We have a scale. I, myself weigh 150 lbs. I stand on the scale and then I put a 1 lbs piece of iron in my hand. Whoo hoo the scale goes to 151 lbs because I added that piece of iron(muscle) so would you say that at this point muscle weighs more than fat that is why you gained a pound? No, you gained a pound because you added a pound. Now that I am 151 lbs with that 1 lb iron in my hand, I decide to put a pound of feathers (fat) in my other hand. Now that should make the scale go to 152. I am now holding 2 lbs of 2 very different (density and volume) items in each hand. Now since you say muscle weighs more than fat, and I take that piece of iron off of the scale will that make my scale go to 148? No, because I only took a pound off. No matter if I took the iron or the feather off or added them. A pound is a pound. "They both are exactly the same height and have the exact same measurements from their head to their toes. However, one is 50% fat while the other is 7% fat. Which will weigh more. Hopefully you said the 7% individual." There is so many things wrong with this remark that I will say two things about it. Remember in school and you would do some math problem long hand because your teacher wanted to see your work? Well I beg that of you. Show me how you think a person with 50% bodyfat will weigh less than a person with 7% bodyfat? Also a person with 50% bodyfat will not have the same measurements from head to toe as a person with 7% bodyfat. Now there is a lot of technical ways we can get into this about density and all that stuff about which weighs more. Getting into this is what competitors do and bodybuilders. The reason I posted is so that beginners would not go into this thinking that if they gain 5 lbs on the scale is because muscle weighs more than fat. I do not want a beginner stepping on the scale and not losing a pound and thinking they have not gained any muscle because if so the scale would go up, but in reality you are exchanging pound for pound. To stay on topic and not steal Daks thread! Dak, you need to get your bodyfat tested. If your are at 108 lbs with 32% bodyfat then losing scale weight is not your problem."

Razor said: "Strout, I have read your other posts and everything is cool with us. It is very hard to tell how someone sounds over posts like this. I assure you I was not trying to be rude or disresprect you at all. If I engage argument, I am always respectful of someones opinion and I make sure to keep it a friendly debate. I will work a little harder on trying not to sound rude or disrespectful. I agree with everything you say. There is nothing in any of your post that I do not agree with. I once was a very overweight woman. I am now a woman that is closer than not to the end of the tunnel of competiton status. I am here to help everyone on here to bust out myths and to learn how to lose weight permanently and healthy and also realize the roll nutrition has in this process. For instance Strout (hee hee I said for instance) what you say is correct about calorie deficit and energy expenditure. Now I know plenty of people who say okay I will cut my calories and eat CRAP, but stay within their calorie limits. I can promise you that muscle growth will be hendered horribly if you eat your 1200 calories a day on Nutter Butters. Yes I have seen people do this. They eat Burger King but say they have not had many calories today. I am an advocate against Weight Watchers because of this. Their "point" system just leads people to believe they can have crap but count it as points. A friend of mine was on it and would skip 2 meals so she could go out to eat and have beer. Now people have lost weight on it I will say that, but to what ratio did they gain it back? My friend did. Anyway we are great Strout and I think you are very knowledgable. Together I am sure we can help all the people on this forum to learn the ins and outs of nutrition, weight loss, and the roll strength training has in it. =)"

Razor said: "Strout, What you do not realize is that I had already won way before you said "I WIN" because I am a woman :D I think you and I agree on most things as well. I think you and I just got a little bumpy by assumptions at the beginning. Yes I plan on competing someday. I remember as a beginner I was afraid to lift heavy weights because I would get vascular, and just get ripped after 3 weeks of working out. Now I wish that myth to be true. I have a ways to go trust me, but I am closer than not. Originally I was going to do figure, but I naturally put on too much size for that, as well as I like the size. So I want to do lightweight bodybuilding. I am completely natural in every aspect. I have the size right now. I just can't seem to cut the fat. I know what I need to do. It's just doing it. For me to cut the way I want. Then it's time for me again to give up the wine. Count every calorie in my mouth. Eat all natural, and the good ol 40/40/20 or the 60/20/20. Although just recently I have decided to I recover extremely quick so I decided to try out training each body part twice a week. I think I have seen some changes! It's just the damn diet. I remember in the beginning I shed the pounds without counting or anything. You would think it would be easier once you gain muscle =("

theirmom said: "Muscle weights more than fat. so be sure you are not ruining your muscle..uping your calories for a week or two could also jump start your losing again."